Frustratingly, these attitudes have been around long before LLMs, and they'll continue to exist long after. To those individuals who have staunchly refused to broaden their horizons or empathize with their fellow man, these posts are direct threats to the wagons they've hitched themselves to, a challenge to their own narrow passions because they exist in a zero-sum environment where if even one person doesn't think and act like them, then clearly they're in the obvious wrong.
Conflating a preference for manual creation with opposition to the existence of a tool should be the single biggest signal flare that they are someone who will not argue with you in good faith. They're the ones who barnstorm every single one of these posts to denigrate the author rather than even attempt to empathize with their plight or evaluate the validity of their arguments. Surely the current cohort of HN commenters have seen this repeatedly in just the past five years as technical circles have jumped from cryptocurrency to blockchain to NFTs to LLMs to GenAI; every single one is a "must have", every single one something we "must learn or be left behind forever", and every single one refused to be evaluated on its merits in favor of simply embracing something new for its novelty.
I have given up debating with these people, because they do not wish for debate, they wish for dominance. I have better things to do with my time - as do you, as do all of us - than to give a moment of consideration to a viewpoint that relies on pithy quotes out of context and a reductionist narrative of history to justify their own superiority over others, in lieu of nuanced discourse.
Remember that it is not the obligation of the status quo to defend itself, rather the obligation belongs to those advocating changes to justify and defend their position and its benefits. In that regard, the pro-AI camp continues to come up hollow and empty.
Wonderfully put, thank you. Ultimately, we’re supposed to be “engineers,” and that means (for our jobs) assessing tools and practices in terms of their net benefit on the products we create: there is no free lunch, and a thing’s downside is often proportional to its upside, so it seems wise to approach these things with caution and to have the kind of nuanced discussions that you note have been lacking.
I’d also hope, though, that as humans, we can recognize that tools do not exist in a vacuum, and that their effect on ourselves and society at large can be net negative even if they have a net positive effect on our work (whether due to something fundamental to the tool or due to the way it is being applied at scale). We can’t responsibly leave these discussions out of our analysis of the tool itself and its fitness for purpose, because we are members of society, and our adoption/use of the tool helps to determine that societal impact.
Given the gargantuan amount of data showing productivity relative to wage gains, or productivity relative to time worked, or productivity relative to physical office proximity, and the absolute staunch refusal of business to listen to any of it, I can only assume one thing:
The point was never productivity, it was about humiliation and control.
If it were about productivity, workers would be paid substantially more to reflect the immense productivity gains we’ve created through automation; we are not.
If it were about effective time management or efficiency, we would be on four-day, 32 hour work weeks to reflect the real productive output of labor; we are not.
Just like how RTO excuses of “mentoring Juniors” and “improving team cohesion” went out the door for mass layoffs, despite data showing that a flexible schedule adapting to the needs of the team rather than whims of leadership have better outcomes and higher productivity; we now pay higher commute costs, fuel costs, energy costs, and opportunity costs so real estate investments don’t invert.
It’s all bullshit and lies, and this is one more study to add to the Alexandria-esque library of research proving that there is no single good way of working, and the insistence of refusing to change how we work is ultimately costing us more than if we just learned to adapt.
It's just sparkling xenophobia. Forcing a return to one's home country to apply for a Green Card can frequently remove the very qualifiers one has to getting said Green Card.
Just take a look at the categories of Green Cards available on USCIS' website[0], and think about how many of them will be unavailable if you're back in your home country.
* Green Card via Family? 18 months, minimum, for approval.
* Green Card via Employment? Well, self-deporting likely means the loss of said job opportunity, thus your ability to convert to LPR status
* via Special Worker? Here's hoping you're not an Iraq of Afghani national that might be persecuted back in said home country for cooperating with the US Government.
* via Refugee or Asylee Status, or as Victims of Abuse? Are we fucking kidding, here? Forcing refugees/asylum seekers/abuse victims back to their home countries is deliberately cruel, and I'm going to be looking for statistics on changes in approvals pre- and post- this policy change to make sure "special circumstances" are actually recognized as such
It's just a despicably cruel policy change that's so overtly xenophobic, it actually reveals the alignment of those reporting on it when it's not called out as such. It's the antithesis to legal immigration in that it all but destroys the process entirely, promoting more illicit behavior (dangerous and clandestine border crossings, exploitation of migrant workers, human trafficking, etc) in the process.
My buddy married someone he met in grad school abroad, then got a job in the US when he graduated. She had to move in with her parents in Japan while waiting for the green card. It took at least a year.
I'd disagree on nuance. Xenophobia is anti-foreigner. This targets people of color. They target people of color who are US citizens, too.
It is gutter racism.
edit: I wish I could be surprised by the downvotes, but it's gutter racism and I'm proud to point this out! I would be never be quiet about a matter of ethics and conscience just because of startup accelerator social media popularity points. This directly influences many of our friends and colleagues in this field. It is vile, evil racism and directly topical for software startups.
edit 2: the list of immigrants and children of immigrants who have founded software companies that are the absolute backbone of US information infrastructure is embarrassing to write down. Anyone can search for the information, but it's harder to list companies not founded by immigrants or children of immigrants.
I'm right there with you, and it's why I go to great pains to articulate the entirety of my position on immigration when I get into these sorts of debates. The simpler someone's position on immigration is, the less they understand it at length or the more extremist their viewpoints tend to be.
Threads like these make me realize how wrong people can be. I understand the complexity and can see how misinformed people are. Makes me wonder what happens in other threads where I know little and just take whatever at face value. Eesh.
It's not that complicated, my immigration policy is "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Mine comes to the same conclusion via a different route. I don't want my government telling me where I can or cannot travel to or decide to live, and I want all other governments to do the same.
I mean, I think that's a noble position to take; I share it, to a significant degree. The problem is when you start getting into the nuance of the modern world, where everywhere has a record of who you are, what you've done, where you've been, etcetera. The existence of that data means the masses will want to judge immigrants by said data before permitting entry, which means bad actors will leverage said data to persecute those they hate.
In principle, I am 100% with you. Pragmatically however, it's significantly more complex.
That "19th century ethnic activist" was born in the US after her family emigrated here more than a century prior fleeing the Inquisition. Her activism was aiding refugees entering New York as they fled the pogroms of Eastern Europe. My ancestors entered this country in the 19th century though that "golden door" as "poor huddled masses" fleeing those same pogroms. I admire that "ethnic activist" not locking the door behind her just because her ancestors happened to make the journey in a prior generation and therefore I echo that mindset. For me, being anti-immigration would be like spitting on all their graves.
This country was built on the backs of immigrants and slaves which instills in me the belief that even more central than freedom, there is no ideal more core to the United States as a nation than immigration.
Right, so don't answer any of the questions and just get on your soapbox about how persecuted your special interest group is. What a shocker the rest of the country is growing tired of your antics.
The rest of the country is also made of immigrants, if not their generation than one past. That includes white people, and that includes me, a white man.
Know your place as an American. This has always been a country made up of immigrants, a melting pot. To suggest otherwise is anti-American. Anti-americans like yourself feel welcome because of who is in the white house, but make no mistake: you do not belong here with those beliefs.
There are many, many countries which aspire to a boring white hegemony. Go there, be happy, leave the Americans alone.
It's not helpful to tell citizens to "know their place" and leave their country and claim that people of a given race are boring and call people who love America "anti-American".
I'm a white American, but my lineage, like yours, is one of immigrants. I did not come here on the mayflower, and neither did you.
You do not love America. You love what you wish America would be. But what America is, is a country composed of immigrants; a melting pot. It's been that way since our very conception and continued into the 20th century.
And, given you do not love what America is, perhaps you do not belong here, and that's fine. As I've stated, there's plenty of white hegemony countries available.
I mean, frankly, I don't know how you could possibly think that's ever been America. Because where I grew up, it was always colorful, from my earliest memories.
And, to be clear, this is a second person you. This applies to everyone who holds these deplorable anti-American beliefs.
Well, why are you posting on HN instead of manning the border? Or are you "offshoring" immigration enforcement to someone who doesn't sit behind a keyboard on a Saturday afternoon?
my position has been steady since the start of my political consciousness (maybe ~12 years?)
all laws, including immigration laws, should be enforced consistently and universally, and without bias. and the laws should be changed to make it much simpler and easier to immigrate especially if you are able to already secure employment, housing, and health insurance.
This is the biggest memory repricing cycle I've ever seen in my life; some degree of high price/limited availability and "free RAM with purchase of Doritos" cycle is always expected, but this has been the worst one yet.
As other commenters have pointed out but I might have missed in the article, compute maturation is amplifying memory constraints right now and making it worse. Device upgrade cycles are getting longer because most compute-based products have matured, with CPUs not seeing substantial gains and memory usage really only expanding at the absolute top end of workloads pre-LLMs (3D and HPC in particular). An iPhone 14 still has almost all the features of the iPhone 17, because the compute capabilities are remarkably similar; Geekbench shows a performance delta of ~25-30% between the 14 and 17 Pro Max models, which is pretty paltry considering the devices are separated by four years of manufacturing improvements. This extends into desktops, laptops, tablets, STBs, and more, with only VR devices and larger ARM/RISC-based kit seeing more substantial uplifts as general designs improve.
So with compute stagnating and memory constrained, my money is on vendors taking this as an opportunity to gradually shift away from a yearly release cadence and slow down to a biennial cycle that alternates between budget and flagship launches every other year. Even if LLMs fail spectacularly and all that memory capacity becomes available, HBM memory likely isn't to find its way into many consumer devices (just ask AMD how it worked out for them on consumer GCN GPUs).
The name of the game, especially for consumers, is efficiency - "potato builds", as I've been calling them. Software and services optimized for lower power, smaller-specced devices of increasing age instead of pandering to flagship devices with poorly optimized code or engines for the sake of new shinies (like Raytracing). Between the memory shortage, shifting geopolitics, rising costs, and stagnant wages, consumer purchasing power is going to be squeezed like a vice for the foreseeable future, and businesses will need to adapt around that reality.
So with compute stagnating and memory constrained, my money is on vendors taking this as an opportunity to gradually shift away from a yearly release cadence and slow down to a biennial cycle that alternates between budget and flagship launches every other year.
My bet is that vendors will simply discontinue their low margin phones, which are usually the budget phones.
For example, Apple might make fewer iPhone 18 and let it sell out frequently. They’ll use their RAM supplies mostly for the Pro phones.
I don’t think Apple will stop releasing new iPhone Pros every year. The business is too big.
> For example, Apple might make fewer iPhone 18 and let it sell out frequently. They’ll use their RAM supplies mostly for the Pro phones.
Apple has a second option that may not be open to most other vendors - as they've just demonstrated with the MacBook Neo, they could cut the RAM in half on the budget models. One good cycle of optimising the hell out of their (almost entirely native) software stack, and iOS would once again sing on a 4GB SKU.
The Neo is a downgrade versus the current MacBook Air too. Which is ok since it is also dramatically cheaper.
I don't necessarily expect them to cut memory on the existing models, but I could well see a 4GB iPhone e/mini showing up to shore up the bottom of the lineup, as the pro models get price increases.
I mean, that's the correct short-term read, but if LLMs in hyperscalers remain commercially viable to the point of tying up memory for several years, and if that necessitates an expansion of memory fabrication to satiate unmet demand, and if that demand ends up getting hoovered up by AI companies again due to their unmet or delayed demand from technological adoption, then Apple et al may not have much of a choice but to adopt such a profound strategy change.
There's a lot of 'ifs' there to be sure, but they'd be fools not to at least discuss the possibility internally and understand their options.
Haven't they already proven to be extremely useful? In some areas they are definitely here to stay, coding/software and search (retrieve and summarize information). There's a bunch of places where they are surely shoehorned in, overhyped, and don't belong, but there's also equally many places where they might still be transformative but aren't used yet.
But overall I think the technology is well proven.
I always leave room open for failure, and that approach has generally served me well personally and professionally. I have never been punished for having an exit strategy.
Besides, the marketplace is still in its infancy for LLMs, with a lot of unanswered questions. A lot of those questions surround the commercial viability of frontier models on bespoke hyperscaler data centers with limited usage outside of LLMs specifically should those economics be non-viable. Since that's where the memory is being tied up into, that means it's a critical question to answer in order to determine long-term investment needs into further memory fabrication.
I sympathize with the poster, as deploying my own stack should've been an easier migration from their EdgeRouter kit than it turned out to be - though wisely, I had budgeted a six hour window for a process that ultimately took ~2hrs.
Ubiquiti's niche really is the "I want Enterprise features but I also don't want to be my own CCIE to run this shit," and in that sense it overachieves nicely. Does it have idiosyncrasies? You betcha, and OP found this out first hand. Would I trust this for blind/hands-off remote site deployment? Hell naw, that's what Meraki is for. Would I build a data center around these? Maybe, depending on the data center's function?
Honestly, my wishlist for the product suite is a stronger focus on self-hosting, removing the Bluetooth app requirement for initial setup of hardware, improving zero touch provisioning, and letting me use Identity without having to tie it to their servers (e.g., local LDAP or SAML/SSO integration). That'd make me a happy dinosaur.
Interesting, for my part I would never build a data center (or underpin critical infrastructure) with Ubiquiti but I have a lot of it at blind remote sites and it works well enough - WAN failover, and they've built out a fair bit of downstream failover as well - shadow gateways, RPS, etc. Has replaced a lot of Meraki subscriptions.
Ooh, I'd love to hear how you've made that work because ZTD with Ubiquiti - at least in their Bluetooth app deployment era - has been a crapshoot for me.
As for data centers, I should be clear on sizing: we're talking the same sort of footprints you'd see Meraki leveraged for (<10 racks, mostly traditional storage/hypervisors/big iron stuff), not HPCs and Hyperscalers and the like. Y'know, standard VLAN-based isolation, traditional load balancers instead of network overlays, maybe the odd eBGP for public cloud connectivity with the new Ubiquiti Network update. Areas where I don't need QSFP+ to endpoints and where budget forces me to choose between hardware and headcount (an area Ubiquiti and Meraki excel in). Even then, I'd really only lean into Ubiquiti over Meraki if I'm trying to conserve capital and I'm unsure of scaling: Ubiquiti is cheaper to replace if I need to scale up than Meraki, but Meraki's support is generally far superior than Ubiquiti since it's Cisco folk.
Could I build a data center on Ubiquiti? Totally. Would I? That's highly dependent on the specific context.
I mean, it's not a hard conspiracy theory to fabricate that space-focused billionaires like Elmo and Butthead would want Earth to become increasingly uninhabitable to justify more outside investment in their "solutions" of space race-ing to Mars or colonies that they can then rule over.
It's a conspiracy theory, but the best ones are always rooted in some morsel of truth (Elon/Bezos wanting more investment in their space firms).
* LLMs do just interpolate their training data, BUT-
* That can still yield useful "discoveries" in certain fields, absent the discovery of new mechanics that exist outside said training data
In the case of mathematics, LLMs are essentially just brute-forcing the glorified calculators they run on with pseudo-random data regurgitated along probabilities; in that regard, mathematics is a perfect field for them to be wielded against in solving problems!
As for organic chemistry, or biology, or any of the numerous fields where brand new discoveries continue happening and where mathematics alone does not guarantee predicted results (again, because we do not know what we do not know), LLMs are far less useful for new discoveries so much as eliminating potential combinations of existing data or surfacing overlooked ones for study. These aren't "new" discoveries so much as data humans missed for one reason or another - quack scientists, buried papers, or just sheer data volume overwhelming a limited populace of expertise.
For further evidence that math alone (and thus LLMs) don't produce guaranteed results for an experiment, go talk to physicists. They've been mathematically proving stuff for decades that they cannot demonstrably and repeatedly prove physically, and it's a real problem for continued advancement of the field.
"interpolate" has a technical meaning - in this meaning, LLMs almost never interpolate. It also has a very vague everyday meaning - in this meaning, LLMs do interpolate, but so do humans.
> * That can still yield useful "discoveries" in certain fields, absent the discovery of new mechanics that exist outside said training data
One can argue, new knowledge is just restructured data.
I think the main concerns about LLMs is the inherent "generative" aspects leading to hallucinations as a biproduct, because that's what produces the noi. Joint Embedding approaches are rather an interesting alternative that try to overcome this, but that's still in research phase.
Yeah, no, that price does not justify the service.
I got mine for $250. Plex worked great. Then they added streaming tie-ins and promotional services I didn’t ask for, making them opt-out instead of opt-in.
They changed how my apps worked.
They made my users sign up for Plex accounts instead of letting me manage them locally.
They then tried making it appear like users had to pay to use my library, even though I had paid for a lifetime pass.
Then they actually did make it require a Plex Pass to stream remote content.
It’s my fucking content, Plex, and this nonsense is why I stood up Jellyfin as an escape hatch.
I mean, yeah? Those of us who generally sit on the polar opposite of the scale have been parroting this for decades, now, to no real avail. I’m glad research is finally backing up what we already knew, but it’s also still targeting a specific bullseye rather than broader generalizations necessary for meaningful organizational reforms.
Look, society for a while now has been incentivizing a “fuck you got mine” attitude in workers at all levels that has fostered immense dysfunction in work, governance, and society itself. We reward exceptional individualism and punish any sort of community action that doesn’t do the same.
This is why mediocre actors will enable and support authoritarian goals: it gets them ahead, society rewards them for it, and they (naively) believe their rewards will somehow protect them from the harms they force unto others. Except that never happens, and eventually when society course-corrects those very same enablers find themselves ostracized from both society at large and the remnants of power that remain; everyone expects to accelerate upward forever, forgetting the roller coaster has to return to the station at some point.
I consider myself both a worker (in that I don’t see myself ever stop working, even if given the resources to do so) and a more-selfless-than-most individual, and I’m quite sick and tired of getting used up and tossed aside by these mediocre miscreants to preserve personal power. The net result of a career of soldiering through bankruptcies, layoffs, downturns, redundancies, mergers, contract changes, and downsizing while mediocre power brokers above ride off into the sunset flush with cash and homes (plural) and wealth has consistently pushed me harder and harder to the left over time. It never matters how many millions I save in costs, or how many hours I work, or how many months of build time I reduce, or how many roles I juggle or councils I sit on, because I’ve
never truly been rewarded proportionate to the cost I’ve paid, let alone merely kept around longer than milquetoast leadership or layabout colleagues - and that’s a very strong lesson to try and overturn when it’s been beaten into you for twenty-odd years.
I also know I’m far from alone in this perspective. There’s a growing throng of us who did everything asked of us and then some only to get tossed aside in the name of someone else’s personal wealth or success, and we’re increasingly bitter about it. To limit this only to authoritarianism is missing the forest fire for a single burnt tree.
> Look, society for a while now has been incentivizing a “fuck you got mine” attitude in workers at all levels that has fostered immense dysfunction in work, governance, and society itself. We reward exceptional individualism and punish any sort of community action that doesn’t do the same.
From what I can see, this attitude has become widespread specifically because our societies aren't holding the rich accountable for anything, so why should we play nice if they won't?
I recently left a company where WHO made the decisions became more important than if they were good decisions or not. An active board had different goals than company leadership, burned through 3 CEOs, 3 COOs, 4 CFOs, and 4 HR chiefs in 18 months, and refused to listen to anyone inside the company when the board plans failed. Why so many C suites? Board would demand we do X, so we'd do X even though it was a bad idea, it failed, and then we'd fix it, do extremely well, and then the board would demand another change.
After 2 years of that, the board started firing C-suite and telling the replacements that the plan was to try Plan X, but not let on it had been tried 2 times before. Plan X would fail, there's be a C-suite sacking, replaced with a new group, and they'd try Plan X again. Repeat until we had tried Plan X 5 different times with 3 different sets of C-suite in 3 years.
In December the PE firm got tired of waiting for results and is selling off that company at a fire sale. My equity is worthless. Everyone's equity is worthless. The managing director got a $14m parachute with his pink slip.
I did everything right, and I got screwed. This is why line workers are adopting that attitude.
Who told you that everything you were doing was right? Were they, perhaps, the same people who screwed you?
Was one of the things you did right "organize with your fellow workers to form a union and bargain collectively against management and the board"? If not, why not?
Not OP but sometimes we all get caught up in the sunken cost fallacy. The product you’re working on might soldier on despite the chaos at the board level. I worked for a company with a micro managing board who forced a series of MDs out and the ordinary day to day work still got done until they literally ran out of money. The ordinary workers got royally screwed but often had no other employment opportunities and the true chaos was hidden in the c suite
Thank you for sharing this. I have a thing to say that may help. First, I'm glad to hear that your experience pushed you to the left, because a lot of people who experience this injustice tend to go hard right and keep going right.
I agree that extreme individualization in the last few decades has resulted in some really bad actions. We're starting to see Western societal decline because of this, whereas collectivist cultures are thriving. It takes tremendous emotional labor to care for the well being of your community, so it's easier to just worry about only yourself. This is unsustainable just like you mentioned that enablers of authoritarians are never protected. Leaning right and being selfish will eventually hurt that person. It may not hurt them now, or tomorrow, or until 1-2 generations from now, but that course will be corrected. They are prioritizing short term gains over long term benefits, and the good part about this is that a lot of smart hard working people are choosing the long term.
"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" -MLK
On another note: I wanted to shared something about the word "mediocre". I once made a comment to a coworker and friend that we are all just average mediocre people doing mediocre things at work and that is OK. During this same time, another coworker called me a superstar for solving his problem.
The original coworker I had made the mediocre comment to was so offended that they went home, designed a T-shirt and wore it work "Mediocre man. Because not everyone can be a superstar". I saw it. I felt bad and commented to him that I did not mean to call him mediocre or offend him, but the damage was already done. At this same time, I kept getting called superstar by everyone on the team, including by the manager of our team (in retrospect, yikes!). We had a (toxic) culture of nicknames, and this too was going to stick for a while.
At some point, the coworker who made the t-shirt had raised concerns with the manager and eventually the manager pulled us all aside and said "no more superstar, it ends today, we're done with that nickname". Ok, cool.
However, in subsequent conversations, the tshirt coworker would share some of his views of the world with me. He had a very difficult life growing up, so one of his takes was "why do black people get to say black lives matter, but why can't I say white lives matter, my life is difficult too, do I not matter?". I was shocked, but also unsurprised by this. I work in tech, and these kinds of takes are widely prevalent. I don't remember how I tried explaining to them, but I walked away disappointed that they had taken all of the injustice and difficulty of life and instead decided to take something away from a group of people who faced the same :(
I love how you found a way to twist paragraphs of honesty into some mythical narrative about self-aggrandizement, and then ascribed it to individual failure and thus basically proved my original thesis:
> Look, society for a while now has been incentivizing a “fuck you got mine” attitude in workers at all levels that has fostered immense dysfunction in work, governance, and society itself. We reward exceptional individualism and punish any sort of community action that doesn’t do the same.
Just as some unsolicited advice in return for the nugget you extended to me, you might consider listening to the stories of others and attempt to understand/empathize with them. Otherwise you're surrounding yourself with sharks who will feast on your body the moment you show weakness, and nobody helps the shark getting ripped apart by its fellow predators.
Conflating a preference for manual creation with opposition to the existence of a tool should be the single biggest signal flare that they are someone who will not argue with you in good faith. They're the ones who barnstorm every single one of these posts to denigrate the author rather than even attempt to empathize with their plight or evaluate the validity of their arguments. Surely the current cohort of HN commenters have seen this repeatedly in just the past five years as technical circles have jumped from cryptocurrency to blockchain to NFTs to LLMs to GenAI; every single one is a "must have", every single one something we "must learn or be left behind forever", and every single one refused to be evaluated on its merits in favor of simply embracing something new for its novelty.
I have given up debating with these people, because they do not wish for debate, they wish for dominance. I have better things to do with my time - as do you, as do all of us - than to give a moment of consideration to a viewpoint that relies on pithy quotes out of context and a reductionist narrative of history to justify their own superiority over others, in lieu of nuanced discourse.
Remember that it is not the obligation of the status quo to defend itself, rather the obligation belongs to those advocating changes to justify and defend their position and its benefits. In that regard, the pro-AI camp continues to come up hollow and empty.
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