Thanks for writing this, I like the trust/regulation mental model. I can also use it to explain my experiences as a European immigrant in the US. One of the biggest differences I feel is how belligerent and litigious American society is. Would you say this is one of the causes of this outcome? (i.e. when people are worried about being sued, they'd do the smallest and safest thing possible).
Anyway it'd be great to read more posts on this topic, and see examples of cultures you consider low trust/low regulation.
In some sense U.S. regulation is the best in the world in that we’ve led on many health and safety issues such as suppressing tobacco smoking, nutritional labeling, airbags in cars, airplanes, etc.
"rather than centering the voices of the people he claims to "inhabit their tiny slice of the world"
I wrote a book center the voices of marginalized people I spent up to 10 years with during my time documenting addiction in the US. It's called Dignity. I don't expect you to read it, but perhaps if you did, your criticisms would be different.
This project, walking around the world and sending dispatches, is different. While I talk to plenty of people during my trips, its a more macro based approach.
While I appreciate your takes, I will say your making some pretty huge assumptions based on one article. Such is life!
I grew up in between Ypsilanti & Detroit, and I've lived around/in a number of borderline-impoverished communities. It's not my place to make generalizations, but you should be aware that your tourism is not always welcome. Many, if not most of these people, are not proud of their situation. They might smile and take your money as you photograph them, but your motivations are not mutual.
When I was a kid, my decently wealthy grandparents visited on my birthday and offered me $100 if I'd cut my "garish, girly" hair down to a more typical length. Self-righteous allegories aside, I still feel that choice burned into my head like a brand. They let me choose between living as I am, a resented shame in a family too poor to buy cans of Coke or Pokemon cards, or take $100 to humiliate myself for a few short moments. In the end I rejected them, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't dream about yo-yos and Bakugan that night.
Nowadays I thankfully live in a different economic strata, and I even sympathize with your curiosity to explore different cultures and lifestyles. You should stay fully aware of your optics at all times, though. Sometimes, the greatest charity is treating other individuals with the same respect you give your peers.
Again. There is nothing in this I disagree with. But there is a lot of assumptions on what I have wrote over my last 12 years based on not reading what I wrote.
If you read Dignity, and come to the same conclusion. Fine. But this thread is based on a Wiki page.
Congrats on Living in a different Eco strata. That is well done! (no snark intended. Genuine congrats)
I'm not here to throw stones at you or tell you that you're wrong. You can't expect your entire bibliography to be required-reading in an HN thread though (or anywhere else, for that matter). Take my concerns with the levity of someone who has no idea what your work entails, since that's pretty much all it is.
As someone completely independent of the author with a long history on HN (the latter of which you can check) I just want to chime in to say that Arnade’s book is incredible and one of the most affecting books I’ve read in years.
It is in fact one of the most thoughtful and nuanced reads on what it means to be marginalized in the United States, and shines a light on voices and communities that are almost completely ignored, or fetishized, by mainstream media.
He’s being graceful, because anything else would sound silly or like self promotion without that context. But your criticism really is misplaced.
If you care about these issues you should definitely dig in a little and read his book, it’s worth it.
> They might smile and take your money as you photograph them, but your motivations are not mutual.
In my experience. Dealing with tourists like this generates mostly bemusement. They come into your life, spice it up for a little while, and then they disappear again. You don’t expect anything different.
I don’t think most people consider that they’ll be written about on some random travel blog later, nor that it will be in any way relevant to them.
> too poor to buy cans of Coke or Pokemon cards
It’s so weird to read this and then consider that some people do/did see this as the standard of being ‘not poor’. I’d have never considered myself poor, but every time I read stuff like this I wonder if others would have considered my family so.
I'm being pretty pessimistic here, I admit. At the same time though, documenting this stuff is a fragile task. I mostly oppose to the monetary incentive side of it, which creates unfair power dynamics between photographer who used to be a day trader for two decades and someone less-fortunate. Maybe other people are less sensitive to that, it's just my two cents.
> It’s so weird to read this and then consider that some people do/did see this as the standard of being ‘not poor’.
It's all relative. Both of my parents were working full-time and also addicts, which made the money pretty tight. There were definitely weeks where we lived paycheck-to-paycheck. Again though, none of this is to throw a personal pity party. My larger disagreement comes down to his methods.
It might be possible that what you're doing is both noble and controversial. That may be inescapable from what you're trying to do.
There's a certain burden that comes with being from the areas you've covered, which based on my limited reading of your Substack (today) I think you understand. Being a Florida boy might help too. Rust Belt came out some time ago, it was after I got out of the military I believe. I remember not being a fan, mainly because I felt like it would fuel stereotypes about "back row" Americans. I think I was wrong at the time assuming your work would be fuel for that; much of America is already predispositioned to disliking the Midwest and South for a variety of reasons. It probably didn't help I was living in a trailer at the time and at a low point of my life; in that way, I think it was a reminder of what the mirror looks like (though I was not a Trump voter, Rust Belt covered a lot of culture too).
In some way, I think because there's a burden for the people who live and escape those experiences there is also a burden for you in telling that story. We are stuck in a state where front, and maybe middle row, people often just do not have a point of reference for McDonalds being a local watering hole (as an example). I see it in online discourse, I hear it in the areas I've lived in with my job, and I feel it in the runs of politics. I still thank my lucky stars I was able to leave, but I had better opportunities and luck than most.
All that to say, I'll buy Dignity. You at least dared to tell the stories of people whom the most powerful parts of the United States call "flyover".
"That doesn’t mean entirely ignoring places like NYC, Istanbul, Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they can’t be missed, and every city is a confederation of very different neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it is Upper East Side.
That makes where you stay in a city more important than the city itself. "
right before this is a section about how ho chi minh city is a big tourist city but suggests real or authentic vietnam is in hanoi. then a comparison between that says ho chi minh city is nyc, that people should visit indianapolis for a true american experience and that nyc is full of the cynical take i quoted above.
That quote "doesnt mean ignoring ...nyc..." reads more like NYC is a great show, go their for entertainment and spectacle of what it is, but somehow that's not real america.
No. The intent was go to Dyker heights, Hunts point, Jackson Heights, Sunset Park, Jamaica, Crown Heights. Not just Upper East Side or Times Square.
Nowhere do I talk about Real or Fake or whatever. Everyplace is as real as any other place. Its about who you want to meet. How fancy you want stuff to be. How packaged.
>reads more like NYC is a great show, go their for entertainment and spectacle of what it is, but somehow that's not real america.
Well, statistically it's true. I've visited most of the US, and NYC is very different and not represenative. If you want to see how "the other 96%" lives, better visit elsewhere. The same is not true for most if not all other states: they have their unique culture and might be rich or poor and so on, but not is as different to the rest as NYC. Not even Los Angeles or Miami.
I wrote the article. So you can yell at me here. Thanks again for all the interesting comments. Hacker news is the best. One of the few places I read the comments and learn.
Hey Chris - I wanted to drop a note here to thank you for what you've done for me personally. I found you first on Twitter I don't know how long ago and your posts there really brought home to me the point about how we were all talking past each other and don't engage in real conversations with people who might have different viewpoints from our own.
When my kids were younger we went on a camping trip every summer in a state park. There was this one group of people that we would hang out with each year (I called it "redneck corner") who were easily the most friendly and welcoming people in the entire campground. They would feed you, watch your kids, hand you a beer when you came by and we would just sit by the campfire and shoot the shit until the wee hours of the morning. They had nothing in common with me and my world and I loved it. I still remember their stories today.
Reading this post of yours today reminded me of those times, your writings (I loved Dignity), and the need for me to get out of my private office in my house and actually meet people who are different from me again. Until I figure out how to do that, I want to thank you for everything that you do to help me better understand the world a little bit better.
>When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art. More high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.
>The US equivalent is to go to Indianapolis instead of NYC or Houston instead of LA.
This is a really odd thing to say when Hanoi is the second largest city in Vietnam (larger than LA) and a huge tourist destination in itself. It's more akin to choosing LA instead of NYC.
I thought that was a very weird comment as well and your comment about it being like choosing between NYC and LA is spot on.
I am also surprised there's no mention of train travel. I found this the best way to get to know a country and its people. When you're stuck on a train for hours you end up talking to your fellow passengers.
India was great for this as everyone was chatty and spoke decent English. Vietnam was a bit more of a challenge on the language front but you still got to have some interesting conversations in basic English with some help by showing pictures.
I did not go very far off the beaten path in Vietnam but I really enjoyed the vibe and night life in Huế.
This is not 2000 or 2010 any more. On a train virtually everyone has a smartphone, tablet or laptop, very few are “stuck” there for hours having nothing entertaining to do other than striking up a conversation with a stranger. At least in wealthier countries and on more comfortable trains.
And then there are people like me who always disliked chatty strangers, even back in 2000.
Hanoi feels more novel to Americans than Ho Chi Minh, which feels like a fairly generic city. At least that's how I felt visiting the two.
Another thing you have to remember is that there are a lot of southern Vietnamese in the US, who brought their food with them. The average American has experienced more of south Vietnam than north without ever having visited.
Seeing the difference between a city that I perceived to be kind of emulating western culture (Ho Chi Minh), versus Hanoi, which has a culturally distinct feel about it, can reasonably lead a person to see a touristy city as a more cultural experience.
From an ameri-centric point of view, HCM is inundated with a kind of unpleasant or generic tourism (eat at these places, eat on a boat, go to this market, go to this tower, go to these museums, go to these "palaces," climb into vietnamese tunnels) compared to Hanoi where a lot of the tourism is related to both food and how beautiful the country is. It's kind of the difference between "this food is objectively good" and "this food is new and interesting."
Ive been to both and I definitely considered Hanoi more (locally) cultured. Also the comparison to Indianapolis doesn't make sense a smaller east coast US city like Washington DC or Boston makes more sense as it's a cultural and ideological center of the country.
Hey, Chris - I think one of the difficulties I had with your article(and with other writing like it), having lived outside the US and trying to travel like this occasionally then, is that we don't really get to live as the locals live. I spent most of my time in one specific corner of the world, and I see a difference of thought process in people who are tourists, people who travel, and people who live in another culture. I think you're in the second category, which is not bad, but I think that there is a real sense of particular place missing from your writing, while there is a distinct mindset missing from my place (the third category) that lead to both intrinsically lacking the full appreciation of the other. When we travel, we live like some facsimile of local life if we stay in an AirBnB and go to local places, but we still are relatively rich, white (?male?) people with the option to leave the place when we want to, and don't get a good, deep sense of the culture. It's hard to be a real regular somewhere, for example, when it's clear that you are a rich visitor who will be coming regularly for a while, spending a good amount of money, and then leaving. From your writing, for example, I felt like you misunderstood the compliment that Jamal, the Turkish restaurant owner, gave you when he complimented the economic status that has allowed you to gain weight. I lived somewhere in a decent amount of privilege while working for several years, and it was only after regular, constant, and questioning exposure to the culture that I began to understand it past the surface. I don't see how your wide travel to many different cultures lets you get a deep understanding of any specific one.
Put another way, (which can seem attacking, not my intent, I just can't think of a way to say this better in a short comment) the tourist has an experience an inch wide and an inch deep, the traveler has an experience a mile wide and a foot deep, and the person who goes to live in a third country for a term that includes the word years has an experience a foot wide and a mile deep. We just should all recognize what our experiences are.
Solid writing, rolling is the way for clothes, one backpack where at all possible(mine was larger than yours, but still so much easier to just carryon when going to visit somewhere), and I greatly enjoyed my visits to place I described as 'Wichita, $COUNTRY', just not as much as living somewhere for years.
Even foreigners living in a country among the locals people often miss a lot. That shouldn't be surprising, we miss a ton of stuff even in our own country while speaking the same language. Have you ever heard someone from your country tell foreigners about what people in your country are like, and thought "what are they talking about"?
There's just so much variation, it's hard to really say. I've known people who lived in a country for years, don't speak the language, and live in their small expat circle. I've known typical tourist types who found themselves living among the locals because they ended up on a local tour. Or people that don't live in a country, but have studied the language and consumed the local media to an extent that they have a better understanding of a lot of cultural trends than people who lived or visited the place.
In the end, it's probably best to let go of the idea that any one person is going to see the "true" place, or that one city is more "authentic" than another. Everyone, even the locals, are just going to know some piece of a much larger whole. I'm not sure how useful it is to argue about which piece is better than the others.
You are absolutely correct that authenticity is hard to find, and that foreigners do not truly experience the culture as the locals. I hope I didn’t give that impression in my post. And my intention is not to argue, but rather to point out that someone transiting through a place in just a few years does not know that place deeply. The method of life that Chris describes has value, and is good. It’s just not the complete picture (nor am I saying that anyone has a complete picture)
You seem to object to doing touristy stuff, but you neglect the fact that locals also do touristy stuff[1]. I agree going to resort towns is silly, but anyone with a keen eye will learn a lot about local culture just walking around and observing in any neighborhood.
My favorite observation, Chinese apartments with dedicated areas to hang dry clothing outside, the drying area is fenced off, in some places I saw, using decorative columns, with line/bar put up to hang clothing on. Apartments have a large window that opens to the fenced off area, and a stick with a hook on the end is used to put clothing out on hangers. There is still some privacy of what is being hung up, and it looks much neater, and presumably it keeps birds and such away.
Wonderful bit of home design.
Another bit that stuck with me, I was staying at an AirBNB in downtown Mexico City, when I went out in the morning I saw store owners mopping down the fronts of their stores to get rid of the dust and grime. I've never seen stores in the US care enough to bother.
[1] If you come to the Pacific Northwest and don't hike a mountain or go out on a lake, why the heck did you come and visit in the first place? And as a third gen Seattle resident, I've done plenty of shopping at Pike Place Market.
Unfortunately people are only seeing the bad in this article. I do similar things with my family but not so extreme. I've really found that restaurants/food are the keys to understanding the local culture. I will never forget in Pureto Rico we found a back street lechonera, when we were getting food I asked the woman behind us what was good to eat. She helped us then we sta with her for lunch. My family ended up spending almost 2 hours talking to her over lunch and got deep in to PR politics and such. An amazing experience.
What I've found helps the most is asking questions. Any time you can ask someone a question they open up and you end up making connections and learning so much. Usually it's simple stuff like sitting at a full bar and asking the person next to you how the sandwich is, or what is on their pizza. Next thing you know you're making a friend and you're actually having real conversations with locals.
Speaking as a NW European: talking to random people and asking them random questions is like the perfect way to stand out as a foreigner, probably American :-)
Eat in silence and leave others to their own, that's the key to the local culture here. Especially in situations like public transport, people like their silence on their commute.
Someone who shudders at the thought having to answer "what's a good place to eat around here" before scuttling away into the shadows, wounded, isn't going to give good social advice.
But if you want cultures where it's particularly easy to talk to strangers much like in southern USA, latin america is always good.
Aside, there's nothing wrong with standing out as someone with enough social grace to connect with others around you. Being too scared to talk to someone because nobody is talking is a self-limiting belief. Be someone. Leave an impression. As Matthew McConaughey says, stick in people's minds like wet dogshit. Be the guy so brave that he can risk it all by asking "what's a good place to eat around here" to a stranger.
I would suggest Costa Rica. I went there and kept to myself, partly not wanting to seem the Ugly American and partly because my Spanish is sh8t. More often than not somebody would approach me in an offputtingly-friendly way, I would be kind of afraid, and it would turn out in the end they were just super friendly.
I look at it as kind of the inverse. Anywhere that isn’t too developed usually has people that are curious and friendly with time on their hands. Its modern urbanized areas where people too busy or distrustful to talk.
Wow. So many comments. I wish I could respond to all, but life.
Thanks again and always enjoy when a post of mine makes it to Hacker news. I appreciate the feedback, and actually listen to it, and when wrong, try to adjust.
I generally would agree that touristy city centers tend to feel similar to each other, be polished and therefore boring. However, your example of Hanoi couldn't be more hilariously misguided. Your characterisation of touristy areas ("places of quaint storefronts mobbed with American retirees, hip bars filled with plastered 25 year old Brits, and a few monuments with millions of Instagram posts.
Despite being in very different cities, they all feel the same. You have your five star hotels. Your restaurants that everyone says you have to go to. Your buildings plastered with historic plaques") is completely off the mark. The old town of Hanoi is precisely where locals go in the evenings for a cheap beer on the streets - it doesn't get more typically Vietnamese than that. And the old town of Hanoi definitely does not feel the same as anywhere else, even just within South East Asia, Hanoi is known as a very special place.
Don't get me wrong, exploring other areas of Hanoi is a wonderful experience as well.
I agree that there's a lot of value in traveling beyond the beaten tourist path, especially with the bit that this path tends to have a certain sameness to it, regardless of where you actually are. However I disagree with going out of your way to avoid it. Writing off entire cities because they're big or popular is needlessly contrarian. If you're seeking the lived experience of locals, why not go visit the NYC-equivalent of their country?
Also can't help but point out your characterization of Hanoi as the Indianapolis of Vietnam is ridiculous. Perhaps in comparative size, but Hanoi is the old capital of Northern Vietnam, and remains a fascinating vestige of what "old" Vietnam was like. No offense, but Indianapolis is Indianapolis.
I don't write off entire cities. I do make choices with limited time. As I write,
"That doesn’t mean entirely ignoring places like NYC, Istanbul, Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they can’t be missed, and every city is a confederation of very different neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it is Upper East Side.
That makes where you stay in a city more important than the city itself. "
I wasn't attempting to suggest Hanoi is the Indianapolis of Vietnam. I was Just using a stretched example to go to the less obvious place. Maybe I'm wrong, but the vibes I got here in my world is Hanoi is the less obvious place compared to Saigon.
Less obvious place would be Ninh Binh (my favorite place and experience from visiting Vietnam), not the first/second most famous place in Vietnam everyone knows (Hanoi/Saigon), or at least go for Danang, Hue, Hoi An, Nha Trang and all of these are on tourist trail anyway.
I like your style. Hanoi is a major tourist city, so I think you are really missing your stated goal because locals are familiar with tourists and the wants of tourists. Your desire for a cafe or bar says something? In my experience most cities in the world have a sameness that makes it easy to plug yourself in.
In my own country (New Zealand) when travelling I try to find places that are small (less than a few thousand population), perhaps without any accomodation (a sign of being a tourist destination). One great advantage of going to small towns overseas is that they are safe. Tourist cities are the most unsafe places I have travelled to (I particularly had unsafe situations in Rio and Nha Trang).
Perhaps apply your restaurant thinking, but just go a lot lot further down that path?
In many countries, I have felt like a millionaire, because the difference in income and situation is so profound. In Vietnam I remember talking with someone who’s monthly salary was USD50. I have met many people who had a disposable income of a few dollars a month. USD50 is less than my daily budget which is pure disposable money and is relatively obscene wealth (cost of flights alone exceeded USD50 per day: flights are expensive from New Zealand). I was just tooling around, like some sort of rich playboy, with no cares because I had been given everything by my country. I also remember how small many people were, because their food intake was limited by their means. I have very little capacity to relate, because I have never been in similar shoes (I do remember being astonished at the casual wealth of some Japanese and Americans when I was younger, but I haven’t lacked for anything in my life so it is entirely different).
I notice the same dynamic at home: my income as a software dev is radically different from many people I know. My disposable income is ridiculous: one acquaintance worked 40hours a week and was left with $20 to spend on themselves after expenses. I struggle to relate with a profit of 50 cents per hour.
Using google maps to spot out a non-touristy area was ingenious.
I live near the spot you showed in the example that you picked.
I would suggest next time trying out another method, not based on restaurants, but on using Historical Map: look at the city and go back 100 years, then look at the city in the present, and either choose a place that has not changed at all, or a place that was a slum and now is housing.
Thank you for writing 'Dignity.' I've read it, shared it, given it away.
You gave a tip during a panel in Chapel Hill about learning from others by switching where to get your morning coffee, e.g. from Starbucks to McDonalds, or more local places. I've added it to my list of tactics and am richer for it.
Saigon is also good choice for your travel. Don't be biased by people talking. I can see some parts of me in your post when I went to Saigon. (Fun fact: I'm Vietnamese living in Hanoi)
Next time if you have time, come and enjoy your education in Saigon.
I'm from Idaho, I feel like someone could drop me anywhere in the world and I'd probably do ok. Unless there's humidity j/k :-P
Kind of a random question, but what do you think about van life aka Instagram tourism?
We're seeing a lot of stacked rock piles, trash left at campsites, defaced natural formations, just people in general crowding into areas that used to be "secret". We have a sense that people visiting here don't share our values around leaving no trace. Is that happening everywhere? Is it a trend? Will it get better or worse? Etc etc.
In hindsight, this wasn't a great question. I don't associate vandalism with van life or Instagram tourism. A lot of people found time to travel during the pandemic, some for the first time, and the large numbers of tourists were probably the main cause of any damage. I just worry about the damage worsening if more people are able to be digital nomads but don't work at their own personal responsibility.
i have been traveling with a similar aim, to get to know people and learn about the day-to-day life. and i wish i would have had some of your ideas. like eating at the same restaurant frequently to get to know the people there. i used couchsurfing (and earlier equivalents) to find locals to stay with.
i agree with most of what you say. maybe not the part about picking the worst season. i'd mellow that one to "avoid tourist seasons". i want to go somewhere there there are not many other foreigners.
i also went one step further after i finished studying, and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more. in one decade i lived in a dozen different countries. i always connected to local linux user groups and local chapters of other communities that i was part of. (if you practice some sport, then join the local sports club to continue practicing). i went to local tech events, even if they were in a language i didn't speak. just showing up regularly allowed me to make new friends.
one thing that was important to me is that i intentionally didn't reading anything about the places i went to. i want to experience a place without it being colored through the reports of other foreigners.
and in a manner i am still traveling. i have been back home to visit, but i haven't lived there for more than 20 years.
"and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more" -- yeah if you have the ability to do that (job, family, etc) that is a great way to live IMO.
You mention the local linux groups. My brother, who does something similar to you, uses the local Ping Pong clubs. He is a top rated player, and its enough of a niche sport, but one that is everywhere, that its a great international community
I loved the article. It puts to words some patterns I have been developing in my mind throughout the years. I haven't got the experience to go that hardcore on localness yet, so my current algo is to seek destinations where the locals go to tourist. I find it a confortable middle ground between the shiny global touristy places and "contrarian ultra-local" places (if I can borrow a term tossed around here, not judging the article in any way).
OR make it only show on consecutive visits (not the first one), and make the "let me read this first" option a bit more obvious. I've been looking aimlessly for an obvious X or No and missed the option the first time around.
To the degree I have a difference of opinion, it is around the idealization of planning and packing light.
I believe the most excellent choices are best made on the ground and the expedition is a great way to explore.
The airport genericizes travel. It removes distance and vastness and remoteness.
Flying gives you an MP3 - and that may be good enough - but it is not the band playing live in someone’s living room.
Getting there puts the flyer among travelers very much similar dealing with very much the same things at the same time. Airport food, flight delays, seat pitch, luggage limitations, etc., etc.
Traveling light as virtue is heavy baggage exchanged for a 61 key synth and a worn tea kettle.
The most interesting and beautiful places in Vietnam are not in the large cities. It is the countryside and the places that foreigners almost never travel to.
The places where you don't see another white person for weeks on end (mostly in the North West of Hanoi... especially Ha Giang area).
The places that are really hard to travel in if you don't have a local who can speak the language. Why hard? Because just getting food or even a place to crash in a random tiny town late at night (because it took you too long to drive there), is a real struggle.
Hey Chris, just wanted to say I love Dignity, and enjoy listening to you on various podcasts. The Econtalk episode and the recent Lamp Magazine ones were great!
Your viewpoint on walking matches my own. I refuse cabs when traveling. However, public transit is usually fair game for me, because that seems part of the culture itself and should be experienced.
Have you ever visualized your GPS tracks(if available) of your walks around a city?
How do you not get the PB&J through airport security? You can bring any food. The ban on liquids is because liquid explosives can’t be frozen. So anyone bringing most okay liquids (e.g. soup) can just freeze it but people trying to bring something very flammable (e.g. ethanol) wouldn’t be able to.
Enjoyed the article! I saw your line about not really caring what you look like and wanted to add that throwing a collared shirt and light sweater into your bag will open many, many doors.
But that's literally not the case. There are ATM cards that reimburse you for fees and also give you great exchange rates.
Again, this is assuming that there isn't some sort of black market for exchange that's causing published rates to diverge from real rates, but that's only the case in relatively few countries.
>But almost every country has, if you look for them, places with zero commission.
Oh man this is hilarious. Places with zero commission end up charging the absolute worst exchange rates. You're better off paying a small commission/fee and getting a good exchange rate instead of those zero commission places that don't charge a fee and fleece you with a crappy exchange rate.
Did you been in Myanmar or Laos, for example? Did you exchange money in Cambodia? Rural Vietnam? Armenia or Georgia, maybe? Serbia or BiH?
I've been in all these countries (many times in some of them) and always, always exchange of cash was much better than exchange rate and ATM commissions for any bank of my native country.
Maybe, USA banks are better, but not everybody live in USA and has USA credit card.
I've been to most of those countries, and they're no exception to the rule that the best exchange rates will be provided by the credit card networks. Though, Cambodia is strange--at least to someone from the US--since the USD is still such a strong, preferred, unofficial currency in many places there. You pull USD from a Cambodian ATM in USD and there will be no conversion fee whatsoever.
If your credit card doesn't carry high fees for the service, the network currency conversion is the way to go.
> If your credit card doesn't carry high fees for the service,
Here is the key. My bank takes 2.5% commission on any transaction not-in-card-currency (in addition to about 0.75-1% commission of MasterCard/Visa system itself) and something like 0.5% for cash withdrawal in any ATM of any other bank, no matter in which country or currency.
And, oh, wait, if it is true credit card (non debit one) I don't have grace period for cash-like transactions and need to pay card interest from first day (for "buy" transactions I need to pay interest only if I don't resupply credit card after month end + 20 days).
And it is typical conditions in my country. Some banks has conditions slightly better, but they have other problems.
When typical spread for cash exchange in South-East Asia is about 3% (+1.5% / -1.5%) to FOREX, which is much better.
Typically: you could exchange $1 to 24000 VND now (oh my, I remember when it was 16000), but if I withdraw VND from my debit card (which is in USD, not my native currency) it will be something like 22000 VND per USD.
Other example: I'm in Armenia now, and I exchange USD to AMD on the street as 1:406 (406 DAM for 1 USD) without any commission (xe.com shows 1:401 right now). When I BUY something (not withdraw money!) with my USD card it is about 395-390 AMD per USD.
I have Visa card with Euro (I know, strange combination) issued by Serbian bank.
I'm in Armenia right now, and street rate for Euro is 390-394 DAM per Euro (no commission).
My last transaction with this card is 5300 AMD / (13.65 + 0.14) Euro = 386.86... (Don't ask why this bank shows one transaction as two, it is something like sum at block correction at charge?). I can not withdraw cash in ATM in Armenia from this card at all, transactions are simply cancelled, so I can not say, which rate it is for ATM. But in Serbia I've payed 0.5% for cash withdrawal.
The best option for me as a Canadian who has travelled to some (not all) of the places you listed, is to do the exchange in your home country and bring plenty of cash with you. If you're going to Vietnam, you bring VND with you that you acquired from your home bank. Going to Morocco, bring MAD with you.
Good to be Canadian, I suppose.
Never see any such currencies in my local exchanges.
Maybe, there are some banks where you could ORDER such currency as VND or MMK, but I'm afraid, rate will be disastrous as it will be very special order.
I’m honestly confused. The ATM doesn’t choose the exchange rate, your bank does. I use my own bank’s ATM card to pull out cash in foreign countries and it’s always the correct exchange rate, and always the same as using a credit card (which OP says is a good rate?).
Most people agree the best rates are obtained if the transaction is done in local currency with the network providing the conversion. However, some ATMs and credit card terminals give the option to either send the transaction to the network in local currency, or the cardholders currency. If you choose to let the terminal submit in your currency, you're going to get that conversion rate instead.
I don't understand the advice here either. It's not hard (at least as someone in the US) to find a card offering no foreign transaction fees, and I thought everyone agreed that the card network conversion rates are about the best you're going to find as traveller.
ATM fees can sometimes be unavoidable, but sometimes even finding a functional ATM was a blessing, so ...
it's been decades, but my experience was that places with commission would only be better if you change large sums of money, which, being a student on a budget, i never did. and if the commission is a percentage, then how is that different from a bad exchange rate? it's simply a matter of math.
i remember annoying my hosts once because i insisted on checking 3 or 4 places to compare rates and make sure i didn't get ripped off.
The thing is even locals will have a greater time during the nicer times. Using Montreal, where I was living until a few years ago, is a much nicer place to wander around when there's no snow. It's a colourful city, lively and full of small and big activity to do, so you can get by with the sort of tourism you described in high season (summer), but also end of spring and early fall.
In the winter, it's a cold, wet and relatively low interaction time of the year. I assume some place have a high, low and dead season for tourism, and I personally aim for low, but to each their own. Quebec in general is a great place for winter vacation, just have to go outside Montreal island.
